Monday, August 13, 2007

RSI--1, Protein Wisdom--0

I decided to replace this post next to Goldstein's original response. In relation to that, I've collapsed all the comments into one.

Introduction--Jeff Goldstein of Protein Wisdom and I seem to have concluded the first round of our debate over racism and oppression. I put up three posts on the topic and Goldstein replied to one of them. But there hasn't been any further posting for a week. So, I'm assuming that the lull in the action means that round one is over. And the first round was definitely mine. I attacked from the outset, put Goldstein on the defensive, and scored point after point as I went along. For his part, Goldstein seemed to have lost much of his hip mojo and ended up reciting his talking points in uncertain and unconvincing ways. In fact, there were some points that Goldstein didn't seem to understand. Of course, George Bush was barely able to get through his talking points in 2000 and 2004 and he still got elected President. But the collapse of the Bush presidency and the broad rejection of neo-conservatism, the religious right, and conservative talk radio have put the entire right-wing under just as much a cloud as the left. And Goldstein is going have to do a lot better if he's going to convince anybody other than the dittoheads who constitute the Protein Wisdom Collective.

Framing. Goldstein is completely wrong about my framing of my initial response. He writes that I think of him as someone who "affects a pretense of hipness." To the contrary, I sincerely believe that Protein Wisdom "is funny, ironic, intellectual, and upscale." I view PW's hipness as an achievement rather than a pretense.

Likewise, I don't view Goldstein "an annoying lightweight, and not really worth much of [my] valuable time." True, I don't view Goldstein as having a lot of academic gifts, but there are many kinds of talent in the world and Goldstein has a lot of ability and energy for re-packaging the standard views of the right-wing in "funny, ironic," and "hip" ways. Of course, given that traditional right-wing views on war mongering, race, gender, sexual orientation, and other issues are morally abhorrent, Goldstein's efforts to re-package these views in more attractive ways is also morally abhorrent. This is especially the case because right-wing institutions like the Bush administration, the Republican Party, evangelical churches, conservative talk-radio, and prominent conservative spokespeople like Ann Coulter have lost whatever intellectual and moral credibility they had. Thus, Goldstein (and other bloggers on the "fluff right") are particularly insidious because they're trying to find ways to repackage views that deserve the broad condemnation they're currently getting in American society.

Far from believing that I'm wasting my time with Protein Wisdom, I believe that it's important to engage and counter the Protein Wisdom point of view as a way to oppose the destructive (or cancerous) influence of the right-wing on American society. Obviously, satirizing Goldstein as a "really cool guy" and his views as "the fluff right" is a way to contest the thing the core of the evil that Goldstein is purveying--the idea that right-wing views are hip.

Given that Goldstein completely misunderstood my framing devices, I thought it was necessary to explain this in some detail.

Goldstein, King, and Racial Moderation. Goldstein doesn't do any better with Martin Luther King's "Letter from Birmingham Jail" and he writes like he knows it. Like other right-wingers, Goldstein wants to quote King's "content of their character" line as if that was the only thing King ever said. However, he starts hestitating and prevaricating as soon as I began to go deeper into King's ideas. Here's Goldstein huffing and puffing about King's relative relevance:
So while yes, the piece remains poignant — and while it in many ways serves as a constant reminder of what we, as a society need to guard against — acknowledgingpoignancy and social relevance is far different than pretending that Dr King’s decades-old letter is a revealed text to be taken as scripture by the Church ofthe Always Well-Meaning Liberal Democrat.


Here, Goldstein is trying to have King both ways. While acknowledging King's continued moral authority ("serves as a constant reminder"), Goldstein also tries to throw off that authority by treating King's work as merely "poignant" as opposed to anything that might claim our attention in dealing with real racial issues. That's why Goldstein sounds so labored and mealy-mouthed in this passage (like John Kerry saying he was for a bill before he was against it). Of course, the reason Goldstein sweats so much in his efforts to throw King off is that King's writing in "Letter from Birmingham Jail" applies to Goldstein in powerful ways that he finds unwelcome.

Much as King condemned the crude bigotry of people like Bull Connor or George Wallace, he emphasized in "Letter from Birmingham Jail" that he thought that Southern moderates were even more of an obstacle to overcoming segregation.

First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action . . . "


As I've pointed out previously in my correspondence with Protein Wisdom, there is a strong analogy between the Southern moderates King condemns here and advocates of color-blindness in contemporary society. Much as Southern moderates said they agreed with the efforts of blacks to overturn racial segregation, advocates of color-blindness say they want a color-blind society which I take to mean a society that is so bereft of racism that there is no racial discrimination, no racial stereotyping, no racial profiling, and no racial violence. However, just as Southern moderates opposed King's civil disobedience and every other method for opposing segregation, the current advocates of color-blindness oppose any method for rectifying either the legacy of segregation or the evils of contemporary racial discrimination.
The advocates of color-blindness have a clever way to justify their refusal to do anything about contemporary racial oppression. They say that policies like affirmative action, school busing, etc. are morally wrong because they are "race-conscious." However, the advocates of color-blindness are just as committed to the status quo of contemporary white supremacy as the Southern moderates of King's day were committed to segregation. And that commitment is revealed when they also oppose the efforts of black activists and white liberals to rectify job discrimination against blacks, consumer discrimination against blacks, racial profiling of blacks, and police harassment of blacks. In the final analysis, color-blind rhetoric is just a way to re-package racial hostility toward blacks for a post-segregation era.

For King, moderates were worse than crude racists because they were a greater obstacle to overcoming the racial oppression of the segregation system. The same is the case with Goldstein and other advocates of color-blindness. They are more morally culpable than the crude racists because their campaigns against almost all efforts to rectify contemporary racial oppression are more of a barrier to racial justice than the less sophisticated bigotry of the crude racists.
Goldstein knows just as well as I do that the Martin Luther King of "Letter from Birmingham Jail" would authoritatively condemn the rhetoric of color-blindness as it's used by contemporary conservatives. That's a major reason why Goldstein's effort above to diminish King's moral authority while still acknowledging that authority is so weak.

Goldstein just keeps flopping around the race-rhetoric boat in an attempt to escape King's categorization of whites as oppressors. It's hard to say which of Goldstein's flops is the weakest, his claim that "some" whites were segregationists or his attempt to define segregation exclusively in terms of race consciousness. They're both pretty bad. Anyway, when King writes that "[w]e know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed," he refers to whites as "the oppressor" group and blacks as "the oppressed." Goldstein embarrasses himself by saying that "segregation was a moral sickness of some white people (my emphasis)." As King emphasizes, the vast majority of white Southerners whole-heartedly supported segregation. True, King named most of the Southern whites who wrote in favor of the civil rights movement and referred to those whites who marched with him, but those rare exceptions to the white supremacist beliefs of the vast white Southern majority did not detract in King's mind from the fact that whites were an oppressive group. In fact, he viewed civil disobedience as a technique for lifting whites out of the moral and social sickness of racial oppression.

"[W]e see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood."
Another way Goldstein flops around on the issue of racial oppression is his claim that segregation was primarily a matter of "race consciousness." According to Goldstein, segregation was a matter of "state-sanctioned race consciounsess" in the sense that segregation would have been a matter of dividing people by skin-color. In Goldstein's words, ". . . both these whites, and the Blacks who followed Dr King, were appalled at the kind of state-sanctioned race consciousness that . . . gave “cover” or lent legitimacy to segregation." This formulation gets two things badly wrong. First, "the race consciousness" of southern whites was not a matter of "dividing people by race" as Goldstein suggests when he characterizes civil rights activists as finding it "morally or legally problematic that a government would presume to separate people on the basis of skin color." Instead, the race consciousness of segregationists was a matter of white supremacy in which whites defined themseles as fully human (rational, moral, self-controlled, healthy) and blacks were defined as inferior to the point of not being seen as human in any strict sense of the term. Segreration did not "separate the races," it created a racial hierarchy.

The other bad mistake Goldstein makes is to view "race consciousness" as more important than the practices of segregation that white supremacy legitimized. Goldstein writes that people like me are being vaguely deceptive when we are careful "to reframe . . . segregation as based on power-relations." Obviously, I am "framing" when I claim that segregation was a system of power relations in which the white population oppressed the black population. At the same time, the claim that segregation was based on power relations is a completely accurate way to view segregation. Of course, the denial of voting rights, exclusion from jobs, exclusion from state universities, segregation of public services, the various personal humiliations, and lynching all involved a consciousness of white supremacy, but they were also exercises of power by the white population as a whole (as a matter of state constitutions and statutory law), groups of whites, and individual whites. In "Letter from Birmingham Jail," Martin Luther King captures the exercise of power by whites over blacks with unequalled moral and force in his one-sentence account of lynching, police brutality, exclusion from public services, and the disgusting personal humiliations blacks endured from Southern whites.

Given that segregation was a system of power relations instead of being mainly a form of consciousness, Goldstein is particularly foolish when he writes that "for Dr King, skin color was merely shorthand for the peculiar beliefs of the segregationists of his time. To wit, King used “Negroes” and “whites” because it spoke to the stark contrasts between the “races” King wished to see legally obliterated." It's hard to believe how obtuse Goldstein's "color-blind" attachments make him here. For King, "Negroes" or black people were a "people" rather than merely a rhetorical device and specifically they were his people as a result of both sharing the history and suffering and mutual aid of black people under slavery and segregation, and sharing the effort to overthrow these forms of white oppression. Being a "Negro" was neither simply a rhetorical device nor a matter of skin-color (as DuBois pointed out in The Souls of Black Folks, black people have a wide variety of skin colors), it was a matter of common bonds forged in difficult circumstances.

Finally, Goldstein trips himself up many times on the issues of guilt vs empathy. In one of his posts, Goldstein infers that my interest in racial issues was motivated by "white guilt." I've seen the racist idea of "white guilt" being the only possible motivation for whites supporting efforts to promote racial justice before and responded by wondering why Goldstein didn't have any empathy for blacks. This threw Goldstein into a flopping frenzy that began by deceptively portraying me as believing that I had experienced the same things as blacks. Of course, that's nonsense and Goldstein knows it. To ask oneself, "what would I have felt if I had been in that position" is not the same as saying "I was in that position." Goldstein himself has a burst of empathy. As a white person, he was "repulsed by what some whites were doing" during the segregation period and "heartened by what other whites were doing to combat the bigotry of those whites who remained committed to legalized segregation." But then, he isn't really white himself outside "certain strained empirical standards and certain conventional descriptors."
Conclusion. One of the things I've learned from black writers like bell hooks, Patricia Hill Collins, and Patricia Williams is how important it is to evaluate the current racial situation in relation to the history of segregation. Goldstein flopped this way and that way in response to my first post on "race and oppression" because any semi-informed discussion of segregation punctures a lot of the myths that color-bline rhetoric is built on. Segregation was a system of racial oppression rather than just a manifestation of color consciousness. Martin Luther King did think in terms of race and was proud to do so in relation to African-Americans. Moreover, King condemned the kinds of positions that Goldstein takes as being more of a barrier to racial justice than those of the hard-core racists.

Goldstein is emphatic that he is "not joined to southern white Democratic segregationalists of the 60s — or paleocon Republican white supremacists today — simply because I happen to look outwardly like I could belong to their group, and so could share their beliefs." Of course, Goldstein isn't allied with the segregationists of the sixties and "Republican white supremacists today" because he looks white. He's allied with white supremacy because his politics is so hostile to the efforts of black people to pursue racial justice for themselves in the United States. And Goldstein is pretty clear that he would have opposed those efforts just as much in 1957 as he does in 2007. According to Goldstein:

From there, Caric takes wing on a bizarre flight of fancy, speculating that, had I been a Black man in, say, 1956, I’d be content with my oppression — that, while he would take his condition seriously and die fighting for his freedom, I’d go find a group of likeminded blacks and, with any luck, become their leader. Kind of an Al Sharpton type, say. Because, you see, it is only those who are most ostentatious about their suffering who can truly be said to be suffering. The rest? They probably enjoy it.

A reminder: if you’re being raped, don’t forget to cry the entire time. No need for anyone to get the wrong idea in retrospect, you see.



What's significant here is Goldstein's intense hostility to anyone who complains, protests, or campaigns against oppression whether it's Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, rape victims, or the feminists who have strived for tougher rape laws, organized "take back the night" marches, and work to get the police to take sexual assault more seriously. But, really, wasn't that who Martin Luther King and the civil rights activists of the 1950' and 1960's were, the people " who were most ostentatious about their suffering" and the people who constantly complained about the deprivations of segregation. Looked at from Goldstein's kind of conservative perspective, King was just whining about his 6 year old daughter being excluded from "Funtown."

Evidently, Goldstein would have been just as opposed to "agitators" like Martin Luther King in 1957 as the conservatives of that time. It's just that he's using color-blind rhetoric rather than white supremacy for the purpose of his conservativism.

In terms of this debate, that makes Goldstein a loser.

53 comments:

Ric Caric said...

19 comments:
ef said...
They do have medication that you may find helpful. Seriously, your claims of victory rely on two arguments:

1. You were shouting as Goldstein was giggling his way out the door.

2. Because you said so.

I've had a lot of criticism of nearly every post for the last couple weeks go unchallenged, am I then up like 9-0. Should I declare victory? Are you conceding defeat? I like my trophies in silver, thanks.


Just to pick a couple line of crap:

Segreration did not "separate the races," it created a racial hierarchy.

Based on dietary habits? Favorite color? It was a hierarchy based on race. How do you dismiss race as defining segregation at the same time as explaining it's race based origins? You go on to discuss power relations, but all that is derived from the race-based dehumanization of blacks. Absent the belief that blacks were inferior the argument to segregate falls apart. Race is central to the power relationship.

What's significant here is Goldstein's intense hostility to anyone who complains, protests, or campaigns against oppression

I don't want to speak for him, but what bothers many is not their campaign against oppression, it is their campaign for increasing racial conscience as a means for doing so. I know they are the same to you, but that's the crux of the argument isn't it?

Goldstein knows just as well as I do that the Martin Luther King of "Letter from Birmingham Jail" would authoritatively condemn the rhetoric of color-blindness as it's used by contemporary conservatives.

Does he? Have you had John Edwards in your office to channel Dr. King?

Southern moderates were even more of an obstacle to overcoming segregation.

His argument was roughly that evil prospers when good men do nothing. As is the case with many issues, large portions of a population are happy to leave things as they are in the absence of personal impact. It is not an active support of the policies but a prefference for ignoring the problem. King realized that the path to change was not in defeating Wallace et al directly, but in convincing those moderates that this was a cause they should get behind.

Advocates of color-blindness are not, as you claim, status quo supporters. As you point out in so many places, their argument is for removing many of the policies since they, in their view, emphasize the race consciousness that formed the basis for segregation in the first place. Your claim is that it is supporting continued oppression and injustice for no other reason than having a different view of a path to actual equality.

King's categorization of whites as oppressors.

No, King catergorized the oppressors as whites. If that's too subtle for you, let me know and I'll break it down.

"some" whites were segregationists

Since "some" is in quotation marks, I'm guessing you have an objection to it's use. As you point out, many, or most, of those supporters did so to maintain the status quo "peace" while others were active advocates. King apparently saw the distinction in identifying the moderates as the "real obstacle". Not to excuse those that chose to do nothing, but it's important to note a difference in motivation or mindset when the discussion is about mindset.

And I have never oppressed anyone, nor do I plan to.... well, I do hope my wife has dinner ready by the time I get home, just so things stay peaceful.

7:04 AM
timb said...
ef, you're wrong about Goldstein and the other "color-blinders". I will submit that they are convinced they are not racists. Jeff and his pals (can we go so far as to place the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court) believe they are not racists, because they do not oppose individual rights and opportunities for individual African-Americans. But, by opposing every goal of the African-American political agenda, by demeaning their leaders, by attempting to define a moral high ground on "color-blindness", they oppose the redress of grievances which allow whites to dominate the country.

Goldstein defends the status quo; Roberts claims segregated schools is the goal of Brown v Board; "color-blind" people (like Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh) actively defend the society which keeps African-Americans de facto economically subjugated to poor schools, poor opportunity, and poor infrastructure rather the de jure.

Unlike the Professor, I think he believes this because of his own upper middle class upbringing. Either way, the effect is the same.

8:19 AM
Anonymous said...
"Goldstein defends the status quo; Roberts claims segregated schools is the goal of Brown v Board; "color-blind" people (like Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh) actively defend the society which keeps African-Americans de facto economically subjugated to poor schools, poor opportunity, and poor infrastructure rather the de jure."

Affirmative action is the status quo, numbnuts, it has been for forty years. We are saying the status quo isn't working for the poorest blacks and needs to change. Why do you keep misrepresenting the argument that the cure isn't working to an argument that nothing is wrong?

B Moe

8:35 AM
Ric Caric said...
Ooh! I'm really excited to see what plans the right-wing has for lifting poor blacks out of poverty! Could B Moe expand on that?

8:56 AM
timb said...
Collins, man up and stop posting as anonymous.

B Moe, between the times you don't understand what I'm saying intentionally (to make some faux witticism), the times you mis-read what I typed because you approach it with a level of hostility a rational person would weary of, and the times you're just too damn stupid to understand, you present me quite a chore. On one hand, I'd rather ignore you, since you are not serious in your "argument." On the other hand, you usually present such an easily refutable point that a know-it-all like me can just pass up.

Since you don't understand the terms 'status quo", de jure, or de facto, I suggest you bookmark "dictionary.com". That way, instead of venturing forth from the PW compound to make as ass of yourself, you could just manage your fantasy teams.

I see the world as it is, B Moe, which is why I never take anything the 29% crowd says very seriously. You, as a middle class cracker, living in exburban America should look out the window of the trailer, and note that almost everyone who runs anything important in this country is a white dude. That, you blinkered, partisan half-wit, is what "status quo means. Affirmative Action is one leg of correcting that imbalance.

Since Affirmative Action has existed for a whole 35 years and de jure and de facto segregation existed for 300+ years, I am not shocked that "the cure" hasn't worked yet.

Seriously, you are on the internet all day long, trolling blogs, leaving pithy, pissy droll little comments everywhere...could you take a moment out of your busy schedule of self-pleasuring and commenting to read a book?

Jesus, Goldstein's are available on his website. I'm sure you'd love them...

On a different note, Professor, please don't mention Goldstein by name! He must respond any time ANYONE says anything about him and send his sycophants flying on the winds of turgid prose and florid rage. If you doubt the "anyone" part, go check out the post dedicated to me...he needs to respond. To anyone

9:56 AM
Anonymous said...
Comment nazi! Deleting comments you disagree with. Shame!

9:58 AM
Ric Caric said...
I only delete comments left by Cleo who often posts as Anonymous. If you're not Cleo, I'm sorry.

11:41 AM
ef said...
Well, I'd start by addressing the failed welfare state. To date, it's biggest achievement is removing fathers from the responsibility of raising children. By any sociological measure that alone is enough to ensure the poor largely stay that way.

cracker

I'm going out on a limb and guessing that B Moe has never held, owned, or forced slaves to work. Using "cracker"(i.e. Whipcracker), especially in this discussion, is ignorant and racist of you, Moron (see, no racial overtones in that one).

Believe they are not racists, because they do not oppose individual rights and opportunities for individual African-Americans. But, by opposing every goal of the African-American political agenda

Are the left's ideas for combatting racism valid on their face, or do they derive their authority from those advocating for them? Are only blacks capable of determining effective methods of achieving equality? Are JG's ideas wrong only because they do not agree with a majority of the black community?

actively defend the society which keeps African-Americans de facto economically subjugated

See welfare above. Welfare alone has made many Blacks the economic and political property of the Democrats. Awfully nice of all you libs to provide for food and shelter while breaking apart families as a means for maintaining power. I guess you can be proud of yourselves since you don't insist they work anymore.

12:18 PM
timb said...
Ef, if I were choosing to use "cracker" and lived in the 1860's, then you'd have a point. Since I live in 2007, I will use cracker as it is used now: a pejorative term meaning white trash. By the way, you might also like to note that the word "gay" often means "homosexual" now. Other word have slang meaning too! Just so you know.

The rest of your argument is typical social con bullshit about welfare. Since AFDC doesn't exist anymore, I assume you've witnessed a rush to the wedding chapel. Further, since poor whites and Hispanics were also on welfare, the idea it was somehow devoted to keeping African-Americans ghetto-ized is as silly as arguing that there is no racism.

Was it just poor blacks by your understanding, who are enslaved by Dem programs, whereas poor whites (voting Republican, especially in the South) were just too smart for that?

The change in black voting patterns away from the Republicans and to the Democrats occurred during the New Deal and was exacerbated by the Republican Party's opposition to every Civil Rights Act since 1965. Maybe, they're not as dumb as you think they are, ef?

12:58 PM
ef said...
Can I have a list of what words are ok to change to suit the needs of the liberal user and which aren't? And can I use nigger since it no longer is a word of the slave holder, but a pleasant street greeting?

1:11 PM
Anonymous said...
What is it with you and Cleo, Ric?

1:53 PM
Anonymous said...
ef

That list of words you requested shall remain elusive. Suffice it to say that there is a universe of words that may be used by Democrats, that can never, under any circumstance, be uttered by a Republican.

For Caric to proclaim victory is the pinnacle of absurdity.

2:00 PM
Jeff said...
Caric wrote me asking if I'd post his tripartite exegesis on my site. He'd reciprocate by posting my responses.

I told him I'd post them on the Pub -- asking only that he send them to me so that I could have a chance to respond.

I guess he took a different tack -- publishing them here, where I wouldn't find them (I don't read the prof's site), then declaring victory.

Again, I could post his emails to me detailing this agreement, which he evidently scuttled, without my knowledge, and simply declared himself victorious in a debate he must have been having with himself.

Not surprising.

Also not surprising -- timmy's preemptive attempt to keep me from responding by noting that I'll respond when mountebanks like Caric lie about their encounters with me.

Sorry, that doesn't faze me, timmy. But I am glad you found a suitable place to suck up and fight the powers.

I take it, Ric, that your kind emails soliciting my engagement -- which I agreed to -- were merely empty gestures, intended to keep me waiting while you crafted your victory speech?

Too bad. I was willing to engage and debate; instead, I was treated to typical progressive cowardice and dishonesty.

The only consolation is that not many people will read your tripe.

Which, I suspect, you understood. That wouldn't have been the case had you posted your pieces -- along with my responses -- on protein wisdom.

And I take it you're learning that your only hope of declaring victory is to actually declare it and have an embittered timmy agree.

Personally, I'd be embarrassed having timmy on my side -- his argument amounting to nothing more than those who disagree with race based affirmative action are, by the nature of their disagreement with that particular strategy for leveling the playing field, necessarily racist (an arguument that tracks with his idea of homophobia, as well). But then, I am not an intellectual fraud.

Enjoy your "victory." For my part, I'm not even interested in reading those last two parts to your treatise you promised me.

After all, you've declared victory. What's left to argue?

4:24 PM
Jeff said...
One last thing:

Note the absense of links to my actual pieces.

I suppose it's easy to claim that someone lacks academic "gifts" when you make sure that your readers aren't made privy to them.

But I can say with some degree of confidence that Prof Caric's assessment is something of an outlier.

If you can believe my former colleagues, that is -- the vast majority of whom are self-described "progressives."

Funny how that works.

4:29 PM

Anonymous said...
"...note that almost everyone who runs anything important in this country is a white dude. That, you blinkered, partisan half-wit, is what "status quo means."

status quo (kwō)
n. The existing condition or state of affairs.

Since we are talking about affirmative action, the current state of affairs is such that affirmative action is the de facto government position, or the status quo. Do you need me to define de facto for you, also?

B Moe

5:13 PM
Anonymous said...
"Ooh! I'm really excited to see what plans the right-wing has for lifting poor blacks out of poverty! Could B Moe expand on that?"

I don't presume to speak for the right wing, but some suggestions I support would be school vouchers, which has huge support in the black community; teach real economics in schools so poor kids of all colors will hopefully make better choices and break the cycle of poverty; and stop any program that suggests to minority children they can't compete without special help, which is in actuality teaching them they are inferior.

B Moe

5:18 PM
Anonymous said...
Feh. Common sense, B Moe. We'll have none of that around here.

6:56 PM
Ric Caric said...
Jeff, the lack of communication with you was more a function of lack of organization than intention. Sorry.

Dan Collins said...

Not as sorry as you will be, Ric, since you can't seem to hold yourself to your arrangements, and apparently would prefer to stash your apologies in the comments section than in an update to your post. However, I would point out that I would not be averse, nor do I believe that Jeff would, to affirmative action that is needs-based rather than based on some construction of racial/institutional-historical identity. So long as African Americans are behind the curve of affluence in the US, that ought to serve them well without necessarily reinscribing and reinstitutionalizing racial categories that really ought to go by the wayside.

Darleen said...

Ooh! I'm really excited to see what plans the right-wing has for lifting poor blacks out of poverty!

Prof, come close...a little closer so I can whisper the secret in your ear

the plan, you see, is the same one we have for everyone else... stay in school, get good grades, don't commit crime, don't join a gang, BE A RESPONSIBLE ADULT.

You know, the same "secret plan" as advocated by the likes of Bill Cosby.

Maybe you were thinking other successful minorities in the US, like Asians and Jews, have some special power that the melanin-enriched dont?

Anonymous said...

I've long thought adding some sort of means testing might actually provide some level of effectiveness. It seems strange to me that those who have already lifted themselves from poverty continue to enjoy the benefits of that system. In fact, especially in acceptance to higher ed, minorities from at least moderately successful backgrounds are most likely to benefit from "diversity" based acceptance programs, having the benefit of the minority preferrence and quality(ish) schooling.

While I would still find the race based programs to be misguided, I would be satisfied that they are targeting those truly disadvantaged.

Gib said...

Also, as I alluded in an earlier post, Headstart type programs have a proven record of success.

Carin said...

The "success" of headstart programs disappears around the second or third grade. Detroit - 27%graduation rate. The problems in inner-city education isn't in the elementary schools - it starts up in the Middle, and reaches a crescendo of disaster in high school.

And, I believe the headstart program (in Detroit) was in danger of being cancelled due to white racism. Oh right, that wasn't it - it was lack of interest.

Anonymous said...

Since we are talking about affirmative action, the current state of affairs is such that affirmative action is the de facto government position, or the status quo. Do you need me to define de facto for you, also?

B Moe


I guess we'll call this one of those times you're too stupid to understand what I typed. I was describing society as it exists. The post refers to racism and is not an explicit argument on affirmative action. Affirmative action is one leg of a stool for righting the wrongs.

As for Jeff....yes, we can tell who the bitter one is. I could come up with a blogspot tomorrow that would require 7 posts and a retirement from you, because I am the embittered one.

Quick, Jeff, I think Deb Frisch just thought about you! Call the attorney, a reporter, BRIT HUME!!!!

By the way, in your recent purge of dissent from your Maoist (in style, if not content) site, you asked I not post there. I am following your direction, like any good Pablo. I did not, perhaps, understand that you have trademarked your name and one was never allowed to mention you anywhere?

Lastly, your rebuttal is as much bunk as your "civil union" "argument." I read it noting the "intent" of the author...to protect the status quo with regard to race in America and to keep gay people from gettin' hitched. I don't know, I was raised pragmatic and all, and a bunch of ten dollar words doesn't cover those views.

You can say that means I think you're a racist (and thanks for telling me, professor, what I meant..is that part of intentionalism?) as long as rubes hit the tip jar, but it doesn't. It means what I typed it means, i.e., you protect the status quo. You can say I think you're a homophobe, when I think you want to keep other citizens from their full rights as citizens because of their sexuality.

To paraphrase: Methinks the blogger protests too much.

Oh, and the combination of victimhood, political correctness ("don't call me a homophobe!") and whining is just pitch perfect as always. Do you wake up bitchy or do you have to work into it?

PS When can we expect the sycophants, complete with spittle-flecked anger and righteous indignation (to be fair, your highness, they'd have to be pretty indignant to top the hissy fit you just threw here, but I have faith).

Anonymous said...

Wow, timb. Just wow.

Anonymous said...

A complete and utter lack of class and decency there, timb.

Anonymous said...

" I did not, perhaps, understand that you have trademarked your name and one was never allowed to mention you anywhere?"

You were the only one who said anything like that, remember this:

"On a different note, Professor, please don't mention Goldstein by name!"

Until you get to the point you can read and comprehend your own bullshit, timmy, you should probably refrain from lecturing others. I mean other than the others in your own head, but that is mostly who you argue with anyway, I suppose

B Moe

Carin said...

Timb:
" You, as a middle class cracker, living in exburban America should look out the window of the trailer, and note that almost everyone who runs anything important in this country is a white dude. That, you blinkered, partisan half-wit, is what "status quo means. Affirmative Action is one leg of correcting that imbalance."

Well, I'm not B Moe, but when I look out the window, I see something different. Matter of fact, I'm in the less than 15% minority in my town. I look to my mayor, my city council, the board of education ... my my, there isn't ONE PERSON of the same color as me? Matter of fact, I couldn't tell you the name of the last white person who won a position of political power in Detroit. We used to have one white chick (who was very liberal) - a hold-over from the 70's but she finally died. The last white person to ever hold an elected position in Detroit.

So, who are you going to blame the problems of Detroit on? Horrible schools, corruption, gang warfare, high murder rate, terrible unemployment ... but where (oh where) is the white guy who is to blame?

Of course, I'll clue you in to the local rational - it is the fault of the white people who left! They oppressed the Detroit black by leaving the city after the riots and crime rates went up. Evil whitey.

Anonymous said...

Caric - Is Jeff a racist? Yes or no.

Anonymous said...

Caric - In your worldview can one have a good faithed reason for opposing affirmative action, or is that simply racist? Can one have a good faithed reason for opposition to gay marriage, or is that simply homophobic?

Or, are we to simply accept that your positions are morally unassailable, and just accept your characterization of any dissenting view as being sexist, racist, and homophobic?

We will not hold our breaths waiting for an answer.

Anonymous said...

Carin, we know all about how you strive so hard as the white person in all of Detroit. How couldn't we? You mention it at every turn.

I am curious if you knew Detroit is not an ancient city state, but is part of the Untied States of America. Thusly, it's economic future and the state of infrastructure are not completely under Detroit's control. You might be aware, but you might not have noticed through the racial patina in which you view the world, that Detroit based its present and future on the manufacture of automobiles (I felt it best to start at the beginning, since you decided to start c. 1983). We don't, as a country, make as many of those as we used to, so Detroit's economy sort of collapsed. With no money, you get bad things.

Tell you what, perhaps B Moe can will you his trailer and five years later you can explain to me why you haven't turned into a mansion....

B Moe, in case you were unaware (and since Jeff didn't explicitly tell you, you might be) the first comment was a joke about the predictability of the PW readers. Thanks for proving it correct, yet again.

Anonymous said...

I have told him repeatedly that I live in an intown apartment in a mixed-race, middle income neighborhood, Carin, but timmy prefers to not be inhibited by little things like the truth.

B Moe

Carin said...

And thus,by calling me, basically, a cracker, Timb dismisses my arguments. I mention by local because it differentiates me from elitest liberals who drive through the hood only in the light of day, with their windows up and the doors locked. See, I put my money (and my house) where my mouth is, I don't just spout bs on a blog. Want to improve race relations? How about YOU move into an (almost) all-black neighborhood? I did have a choice, and I didn't want to live in some of the lilly white suburbs we could have afforded.
You know, in the world-view of liberals, everything flows down. Detroit is stuck in the mud because George Bush hates black people. Or something like that. Detroit's downturn started in the 50's,not the 80's. I was born the year of the race riots, and people have been fleeing the city ever since.

I want to know how George Bush, or the rest of us evil white people, convince blacks to a lifetime of failure by dropping out of school,having children out of wedlock, and joining gangs.

But, to be honest, I'm sick of being the white person in Detroit. I'm sick of walking the walk, while liberals such as Caric has the nerve to call me a racist for being conservative.

Of course, now's the time you're supposed to mention that some of your best friends are black. That would be really cute.

Squid said...

Timb,

In regards to Detroit's woes: My wife is from Pittsburgh, another town that suffered greatly because its industrial base dried up. I won't say that things there are perfect, but the city has done a remarkable job of reinventing itself in the past two generations.

They didn't do it by feeling sorry for themselves, nor by blaming their situation on others, nor by demanding handouts to rectify the injustice of it all. They did it by working hard to find new industries and improve their community's situation.

It's a lesson that too few seem to learn.

P.S. The P.S. about the spittle-flecked ranters was particularly amusing, coming as it did after a long spittle-flecked rant of your own. Thank you for the laugh.

Anonymous said...

I want to know how George Bush, or the rest of us evil white people, convince blacks to a lifetime of failure by dropping out of school,having children out of wedlock, and joining gangs.

That was you and Bush, Carin? 'Cause, frankly, as a white guy I must have missed a memo. Hold on, that couldn't have just the two of you...after all that would mean Bush successfully accomplished something in his 7 years of slowing ruining my country and I know he is far too incompetent to accomplish anything. Oh, I get it, that was short-hand for how righties argue...

As usual, you righties mis-diagnose the disease. Caric is calling Jeff an enabler of racists. You have changed the argument to challenging first him and now me to solve a vexing social issue on a BLOG!

Since that's impossible, I'll give the following pie-in-the-sky list: An observation: I see Hispanic gangs in my town; I watch West Story Story and see white kids in gangs; I know a 13 year old from downtrodden rural America who is a pregnant white girl. But, for some reason, you think crappy schools and bad neighborhoods and bad parenting and poor decisions are the sole lodestone of African-Americans?!?!?

Here are a few things that can help America's poor: Universal health care (now people can go to the doctor for preventive care), re-organizing school funding (instead of richy riches paying for their schools and the inner city folks paying for there's, all school funding would equally from the state), repeal the stupid new bankruptcy bill, let the Bush tax cuts sunset, re-institute AFDC, outlaw loans based upon income tax returns, increase the amount of tuition assistance for lower to middle class folks, increase the amount of direct government loans to college students (currently set at the ridiculous amount of $2,625 per year), overhaul the nation's infrastructure, including water and the electrical grid (this benefits everyone, poor folks get the jobs, rich folks get the contracts, we get clean drinking water), cut the amount of money the Federal government borrows each year (so interest rates can stay low).

Those are a few suggestions, but there is a greater need for the community (community int he sense it means all of us) to heal itself. A real hope to get out would help. How about Bill Cosby producing a movie on the youth of Clarence Thomas (first, I think he's dead wrong in almost every legal opinion he's ever written, but he was a poor kid, who loved the library and books and he didn't need to be Michael Jordan to get out...he used his brain)?

At the macro level, we can do some things and at the state level and local level even more can be done.

Or, I could be holed up in Detroit and whine about it and blame other people (who I accuse, ironically, of blaming other people). Get out and start an organization, Carin, for conservative values. Stop pointing fingers.

Oh, as I got to talk to some nice white people here in Indianapolis, the nice lady dropped an "n" bomb on me. You can tell ef that when "nice white ladies" say that word, it doesn't sound like a "pleasant greeting." That makes it two for three in my dealings with my boss's clients. Damn, I really thought racism was gone. Jeff said so.

Anonymous said...

Never mind Timb that Coleman Young actively chased as much white business out of town as he could. Mike Illitch is probably owed nearly all the credit for any small amount of revitalization that city has seen

The auto industry started crashing long after Detroit did. Sorry timb, but there just isn't a relation there.

Anonymous said...

Squid, the "I know you are, but what am I" school of insults must have served you well in the third grade.

Hell, maybe it'll play in Pittsburgh if you and the dearest ever decide to go back?

You want to see spittle-flecked rage, surf on over to the PW pub, where the rage is fresh, the invective is flowing, and the insults are ad hominem. Today's special is the Hate caric. Yesterday's was the "Hate Beauchamp, Cajun style" and Chef Pablo can still serve up the leftovers

The specials change everyday, but the warm feelings of Muslim bashing, grievance airing, and pom-pom waving never fail to remind you of the warm comforts of home.

Pull up a chair, Squid, and disparage away. There's always room for regulars at the Pub.

Anonymous said...

"But, for some reason, you think crappy schools and bad neighborhoods and bad parenting and poor decisions are the sole lodestone of African-Americans?!?!?"

Jesus H Christ, timmy, how fucking dense are you? We have repeatedly said we don't think it is an African American problem WHICH IS WHY WE ARE AGAINST RACE BASED SOLUTIONS.

You and Caric are the ones insisting it is a race based problem and requires race based solutions. YOU are the racist, timmy, no matter how hard you to try to spin it.

B Moe

Squid said...

Timb,

I offered a counterexample to your example of a depressed industrial city as a means of showing that Detroit's fate was never preordained, and that it's possible for a city, as with individuals, to use hard work and ingenuity to overcome economic disadvantage. That's a reasoned response to your argument, and quite germaine to the topic at hand.

I apologize for calling attention to your hypocracy on the spittle-flecked front, and will try to limit my responses to respectful rebuttals and debate back-and-forth.

But not before I note that you just threw "I know you are but what am I?" in my face, and then followed it up two sentences later with "I know the Pub is but what am I?" That's just sloppy, Timb.

Carin said...

No, Timb. I think you and your liberal friends should all move FROM the white burbs into the city. Money meet mouth. Why don't YOU befriend the neighborhood crack house? I do because I figure if they like me, they'll watch out for us a bit. When they're not stoned, of course. I watch out for my neighbors, and take my mean dog outside when thugs are walking in the street.

I don't whine and blame. I live the experience. I have no political power in this city and beyond being a good neighbor, and helping out with the homeless at church there is little I can do.

My ideas and outreach would be just about as welcome in the public sphere in Detroit as they would be on a Kos diary.

This city is owned by democrats and union leaders. It's like a utopia for liberal ideas and trends.

Anonymous said...

Carin, I'm sorry you feel frustrated.

B Moe, since you have nothing to add to the discussion, I will refrain from addressing your "concerns."

Squid, if we are going to apples to oranges (Pittsburgh to Detroit) we would need basis points for comparisons. Since I rejected your comparison as invalid, the population differences alone 850,000+ for Detroit and 394,000+ for Pittsburgh (let alone the differences in metro areas), I'll allow you set data points for analysis.

As for my description of the pub...can I help it I've read it and watched some Cheers before?

Squid said...

Timb,

I make my comparisons based on personal experience, though a bit of searching found this article which comports pretty well with what I've seen. Call it apples-to-oranges if you will, but I still think it serves as a useful analogy.

In a nutshell, the city that recognized the seriousness of the problem, and worked with its private sector and suburbs as partners to come up with a regional solution, found itself on much sounder economic footing in a space of 20 years.

By contrast, the city that clung to its old ways, and treated its private sector and suburbs as rivals, found itself flailing and increasingly isolated. Put into contemporary terms which may ring a bell: when you're headed toward a disaster, "stay the course" is bad policy.

In much the same way, I would like my black neighbors to recognize their role in the problem, and to see the city, the private sector, and their neighbors as partners, rather than as the enemy. To the extent that city government and local businesses really are prejudiced, I support efforts to minimize the effects of such prejudice. Based on the results of the last 30 years of affirmative action, I'm not sure that it's the correct route for addressing the problems of racism and prejudice where they still exist.

Based on my observations in St. Paul, real progress is made when parents can send their kids to a decent school. We don't have vouchers, but our charter schools are providing a popular alternative. Even though a lot of these kids face ridicule when they go home, at least they spend the school day among kids and teachers who expect real effort and real results (something which can't always be said for the City's schools). I'm hopeful that these kids will graduate and go on to great success, and start a virtuous cycle.

I also find it instructive that our Somali community, which is comparatively recent in its arrival, seems to enjoy a higher degree of success in the community when compared to the established black community. I like to believe that it's because the Somali group believes that this really is the land of opportunity, and is willing to work hard to assure their children of a bright future. They deal with plenty of prejudice (witness the recent airport cabbie dustup), yet they somehow continue to succeed.

More apples and oranges, I'm sure, but I just can't help but look at such comparisons and wonder what the difference could be. It certainly isn't skin pigmentation.

Anonymous said...

Why does Caric delete some comments, but not others?

Anonymous said...

Caric - In your worldview can one have a good faithed reason for opposing affirmative action, or is that simply racist? Can one have a good faithed reason for opposition to gay marriage, or is that simply homophobic?

Or, are we to simply accept that your positions are morally unassailable, and just accept your characterization of any dissenting view as being sexist, racist, and homophobic?

Caric - Is Jeff a racist? Yes or no.

Anonymous said...

I don't know what Ric's answer to that question is but I know my own. Opposition to Affirmative Action IS racism. There is no such thing as "good-faithed" sytemic hate. Opposition to gay ANYTHING is homophobic. Who is anyone to judge what is or is not an appropriate relationship between consenting adults? And yes, from everything I have read here both from Jeff and his zombies, HE IS A RACIST!! But, "ANONYMOUS", at least Jeff has the guts to put his hate out there with his name on it. You ought to try it sometime.

Anonymous said...

todd mayo - We are not the least bit surprised that you have claimed your own morally superior position, and are willing to simply ignore any position to the contrary.

I would be quite surprised to see the Professor lay it out there quite so clearly. Add todd to the "I am intolerant of intolerance" crowd.

Caric - What say you?

Anonymous said...

todd mayo - Wow, just wow. I guess this is why you usually copy and paste. Your own thoughts are a bit sensational.

Anonymous said...

Hey, wow just wow was my line. Just 'cause todd copies and pastes doesn't give you license to.


The jump from "opposition to Affirmative Action" to "systemic hate" is a long one. Any chance you could bridge the two for us todd? I mean without resorting to it's hateful because it's hateful.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, ef. It was so appropriate, and I could not recall where I read it. I shall credit you forevermore.

I think my favorite was that there simply could be no good faithed opposition to any of the ideas, period. His political positions are morally beyond reproach, according to ... drumroll ... himself. Nifty, that.

Anonymous said...

Uh, I have posted one comment on this topic. What the hell?? I wouled require several hours to make sense of the swill Jeff and Co. have spit all over this site. And to repond to all of it? Why? (Matthew 7:6) "...neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." I do not have the time nor the inclination to respond to every grade-school insult you boys hurl. I will state facts and extrapolate opinions. I will not respond to yours until I see signs of another adult here besides Ric and myself.

Anonymous said...

todd - you posted a doozie. In case you forgot, I will refresh your memory.

Opposition to Affirmative Action IS racism. There is no such thing as "good-faithed" sytemic hate. Opposition to gay ANYTHING is homophobic. Who is anyone to judge what is or is not an appropriate relationship between consenting adults? And yes, from everything I have read here both from Jeff and his zombies, HE IS A RACIST!!

Defend that position, or retract it. Simply asserting it does not make it so.

Ric Caric said...

There are certain things that associate opposition to affirmative action (OAA) with racism.

1. When OAA is associated with the kind of hostility to black people seen in the writing of Charles Murray, Dinesh D'Souza, Ann Coulter, and Ward Connerly.

2. When there's a focus on OAA to the exclusion of other racial issues; or when there's a focus on affirmative action that greatly exceeds the significance of affirmative action in our society.

3. When critics of affirmative action don't care about other ways to address the legacy of segregation or contemporary racial discrimination (Darlene is a good example here)

4. When OAA use affirmative action as a "wedge issue" to inflame white racism for the purpose of winning elections.

I don't think it's necessary that opposition to affirmative action is racist, but it does usually turns out to be racist in practice.

As for whether Goldstein is a racist, I don't have an opinion. What counts to me is that he subscribes to the color-blind outlook. In my opinion, that makes his racial views more harmful than those of the crude racists.

Anonymous said...

So, todd mayo :

1) If an African-American is against affirmative action, are they racist?

2) If a gay man or woman is opposed to same sex marriage, are they homophobic?

3) How about Asians? Are they allowed to be opposed to affirmative action without being racist, since they are disproportionately effected by these practices in being accepted to universities?

4) Todd, why don't you just give us a list of what positions you have staked out the moral high ground on, so we do not run afoul of your finely tuned oppression sensor.

Anonymous said...

See, Todd, even the good Professor is not willing to go so far out on that limb, at least not with a saw in his hand.

Prof. Caric, you are very careful in the manner in which you crafted your answer. It starts off by implying that there can be good faith opposition, and then proceeds to provide limitations that would essentially preclude good faithed opposition.

Ward Connerly, Thomas Sowell, Abigail Thernstrom, and Clarence Thomas are racist? That is going to be a tough sell.

Anonymous said...

1. When OAA is associated with the kind of hostility to black people seen in the writing of Charles Murray, Dinesh D'Souza, Ann Coulter, and Ward Connerly.

The koran is used by jihadists to justify the oppression of women, killing of innocents and subjusgation of anyone deemed an infidel. Does this invalidate the idea of islam?

2. When there's a focus on OAA to the exclusion of other racial issues; or when there's a focus on affirmative action that greatly exceeds the significance of affirmative action in our society.

When discussions focus on that topic, one would expect a ... focus on that topic? Part of the argument is it's signifigance to our society. For many reasons it matters to some a great deal.

3. When critics of affirmative action don't care about other ways to address the legacy of segregation or contemporary racial discrimination (Darlene is a good example here)

The "OAA" is used by leftists as evidence of diregard for those legacy issues. Actual disregard for those issues isn't the case(for most anyway, there's always a few, but the left has that problem too). OAA'ers do see that AA, and the associated victim culture, has created a new legacy.

4. When OAA use affirmative action as a "wedge issue" to inflame white racism for the purpose of winning elections.

Here you return to it's racism because we say it is, but the same can be said of Dems use of the prospect of losing AA to inflame racial tensions. Conservative opposition to the program is not necessarily derived from racism, except through you circular reasoning, but that's what we're arguing about.

Ric Caric said...

EF, There's not much to discuss unless you recognize that opposition to affirmative action is closely linked to the politics of racism. And the politics of racism is a big chunk of the politics of the right.

As for the Dems, it's not like they've fought to further or even maintain affirmative action policies. The Dems would have given up affirmative action long ago if African-Americans weren't such a key constituency.

Anonymous said...

opposition to affirmative action is closely linked to the politics of racism. And the politics of racism is a big chunk of the politics of the right.

Back to those wonderfully convenient circular and self perpetuating positions. Well done, Professor.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, we can't discuss why it may or may not be racist because it's racist.

I think my first point addresses that quite nicely.

Anonymous said...

Squid, if you're still around, I enjoyed your response. I mentioned hope of getting out by changing th way we fund public schools and you countered with charter schools. I see those as two similar ways to get to the same end. I prefer the more sweeping proposal, but could you imagine trying to sell that to folks who live in huge houses with a Saab, a Mercedes, and an SUV (for two people with drivers licenses, no less)! This is consumption on a grand scale and the sort of person who is fine with the inner city kids getting screwed, while his kids go to a palace of an suburban school. In the short-term, in other words, charter schools fill a void.

As to the Somalis, I agree with you that are most likely just happy to be in a place where rain falls from the sky and the stores are stocked with food. First generation immigrants often work harder than any other cohort of Americans (it's why the righteous fury that greets Mexicans surprises me so...I guess it shouldn't since every wave of immigration in American history has been met with hostility: See John Adams worry French immigrants were taking over Philadelphia in 1798!).

In essence, I agree with the substance of your post. This society is not color-blind, despite what Hannity says and I think government has a greater role of ensuring understanding and equalizing opportunity. At some point, though, all of us need to work together to bring about racial equality (in my opinion). Saying it's already happened is defending the current system, in which African-American folks watch white folks reap the benefits of the past sins. I just think we should do something about that.

Thanks for the talk. I'll let you have the last word.

Anonymous said...

African-American folks watch white folks reap the benefits of the past sins.

When you offer to teach a man to fish and he tells you he'd rather just be handed a fish, how many times do you keep giving him the fish?

That individuals that come here from Africa (1st gen immigrants) consistently perform well should be an indication that the system is not so terribly stacked against all Africans/African-Americans. At some point those that are still left behind will have to take some responsibility for their own predicament.


Are ther pockets of people that are racist? Yes, there absolutely are, and they should be legally accountable for any actual malice.
Racism on an individual level is never going to go away. There are people of all types that will always choose to hate others for being other. Insisting that racism of any sort is proof of systemic discrimination is ridiculous.

Anonymous said...

timb - I will never apologize for me and my wife being successful, and providing the best that we can for our daughter. If you are jealous of that, so be it. Given the amount of taxes I pay, I have no problem with my daughter attending a brand new suburban school. In fact, that is precisely why we moved where we did.

My wife came here at the age of 6 with her 4 siblings and her parents, after being removed from the roof of the American Embassy in Saigon on a helicopter, and taken to a US aircraft carrier. They arrived in the US, speaking no English, and with $11 amongst the entire family.

Her parents understood what a great opportunity their kids had been afforded, and demanded from Day 1 that they learn English and excel in school, while busting their asses to give the kids the tools they needed to do so. So, when people that are born and bred here fail to succeed, and claim that poverty is the cause, that does not track with the experiences of people I know.

How is the white man of today reaping the benefit of past sins? My father did not have slaves. His father did not have slaves. His father did not have slaves. In fact, nobody in my family ever did, as they were immigrants themeselves. We are generations removed from slavery.

Anonymous said...

Segregation is the more recent issue. We are not so removed from that one. Not that I'm disagreeing with you generally (I think there has been enough time and oppurtunity for those willing to improve their situation to do so), I just wanted to head Timb off at the pass. Whichever issue we referrence it doesn't substantially alter your point.

Anonymous said...

ef - point taken. Even with that, we are at least one generation removed from segregation, and in most cases, 2 generations. 10-20 years from now, there will be very few people alive that will be able to claim personal experience with segregation, outside of bussing.

ef - fortunately, you are a sentient being, and could see the point, despite the error.

Anonymous said...

ef - point taken. Even with that, we are at least one generation removed from segregation, and in most cases, 2 generations. 10-20 years from now, there will be very few people alive that will be able to claim personal experience with segregation, outside of bussing.

ef - fortunately, you are a sentient being, and could see the point, despite the error.

Anonymous said...

JD, whereas your rage on many subjects confounds me, I am truly flummoxed on this one? Why give me a dissertation on your life and accuse me of jealousy. WTF are you talking about.

By the way, Squid and I are having conversation and, where I was raised, when children interrupt a conversation, they are ignored (except when they spout psychotic gibberish). Thusly, I will await his response.

Anonymous said...

Rage? I was not even hostile. Methinks you are projecting again. You really do need to work on that.

If you do not want me to respond, do not use me as an example is your diabtribes, about how I enjoy screwing the inner city kids.

Anonymous said...

Damn timb, did jd interrupt squid from posting? Where I'm from it's only impolite to interrupt while someone is talking.

And it's been almost a whole day since squid demonstrated another one of your views to be wrong.

Anonymous said...

Professor, the oppressed folks over at PW have complained that you deleted comments. I understand deleting the comments of Pablo/Cleo, but I am generally opposed to deleting comments, unless they contain personal info about a poster, etc. Just wanted to make that known. On my blog, I wouldn't delete comments.

Squid said...

Eh, I pretty much said my piece, and it sounds as though Timb and I are not so far apart in a lot of areas. I don't share his class-warfare views, though I recognize that they're popular with many.

I think our primary difference, which I think is also what separates me from the good Professor, is that while I think AA policies were good for closing the gross gap between whites and blacks that existed when the LBJ was written, I don't think that they're helping to close the gap that remains.

(I still bristle at being tagged as some kind of crypto-racist just because I don't believe the current system is helpful, though. Where there's agreement on ends, I feel disagreement on means shouldn't be treated so harshly.)

Anonymous said...

(I still bristle at being tagged as some kind of crypto-racist just because I don't believe the current system is helpful, though. Where there's agreement on ends, I feel disagreement on means shouldn't be treated so harshly.)

yup.