Wednesday, July 25, 2007

If You Ran Out of Sleeping Pills, Here's Goldstein's Reply

One of the things I seem to be cursed with this summer is long-winded blog discussion partners. There were times when I thought Dan Gerstein, bless him, wanted to drown me in words. Jeff Goldstein of Protein Wisdom is even worse than that. I deleted his marginal comments on my own post and focused on the main body of Goldstein's comments.

Here we go.

". . . what caught my eye is not so much the redundancy of Caric’s reliance on the circular notion that the political policy beliefs of “right wingers” are bigoted because, well, rightwingers are by nature bigots, but rather the unoriginality and datedness of his attempts to put such a premise into the respectable garb of academic rigor.

To wit, Caric’s reply on race isn’t very original. In fact, it is merely a simplified rehashing of the arguments Stanley Fish made in “Reverse Racism, or How the Pot Learned to Call the Kettle Black.” Note that the piece was published in 1993 — nearly 15 years ago.

Further, Caric’s entire worldview seems to rely, for the force of its arguments, on essays like Fish’s “How the Right Hijacked the Magic Words” — which uses the very kind of sleight of hand Fish himself ostensibly rails against, and proceeds from the dual fallacies that 1) “conservatism” and “liberalism” (or those who espouse what he would characterize as rightwing versions of what are more properly “liberal” beliefs) remain static descriptors, which has the effect of tarring those currently labeled “conservatives” with the detritus of conservatism past, just as today’s “progressives” get to fancy themselves the same, philosophically, as those liberals who once fought for equal rights and equality of opportunity; and 2) that a disagreement over the strategy for reaching a desired end (which is never really laid out) proves that one doesn’t wish to reach that end (instead of proving only that one disagrees with a particular strategy for reaching that end, or another end that s/he finds more desirable. From there, it is a short trip from recalcitrance to obstructionism and pure evil). Which is why I’ve tried, unsuccessfully, thus far, to get Caric to describe his end game with respect to racial politics. Does he favor a quilt or a melting pot? And why one over the other?

For Fish, the cumulative “blows” of racial inequality are pushed aside by those who live to serve the status quo of white dominance. In short, those who now profess “color-blindness” really want us to forget about the years of racial discrimination in this country so that they can comfort in its long-term effects.

But what Fish (and Caric, who merely parrots the 12-year-old article) don’t take into account is that the cumulative affects of racial discrimination have long been fought with social engineering policies specifically designed (or, at least, so they claimed) to level the playing field — with a goal toward establishing Dr King’s vision of a society wherein people are judged on the content of their character and not the color of their skin. And part of the “history” of racial politics that Fish and Caric rely on must account for the last 40+ years of Great Society programs (which have alternately given us forced integration (busing) and “good” segregation (identity politics)), which, too, are part of the “cumulative” effect of this country’s attitudes and policies with respect to race.

The question now is, have the attempts by government (and the judiciary) to correct the wrongs of the past proven successful? In what ways? What parts of that program should be continued, if any? Why? And — importantly — is it possible that those policies themselves have outlived their usefulness, or are they necessary in perpetuity? Can they withstand Constitutional scrutiny without the aid of an interpretive approach that avails itself of social advocacy?

In short, was the strategy we chose to “fix” the racial divide the best one available to those of us who believe in individual rights (Fish plays on this notion, as well: when used by those on the right, “individual rights” is simply “code” for maintaining the status quo; when used by the 60s civil rights movement, it was a galvanizing cry for social change).

Ironically, when Fish wrote that piece in 1995, he was reacting to a kind of Republicanism that was still supporting foreign policy realism (today’s home of the new Dems) — and many of those who are now labeled “conservatives” would back then have self-described as liberals (myself included).

Caric believes that a culture, having learned the lessons of racial discrimination, either can’t change — or else they refuse to (Caric leans toward the whole “White Oppressor” trope — a way to show that he’s one of the “good ones” by admitting to his own self-loathing. White guilt as a kind of secular absolution).

Me, I’m not much into such reductionist psychologizing. Instead, I’m more interested in getting us to the place where we, as a society, claim we wish to be. And in doing so, I am interested in finding the best strategies for doing so.

It is my argument that the Great Society programs, while initially well-intentioned, have given rise to an entire new set of problems that keep us as a society from achieving our goal of individual equality. If, indeed, that remains our goal.

And it seems to me that those who most resist this argument are people like Caric, who have built a career around teaching things like “Comparative Racial Thought”. These are people who have a vested interest in keeping “racism” and “sexism” and “homophobia” alive, which is why they are so desirous to find it wherever and whenever they can, even if they have to strain — or even redefine the terms — to do so.

But if the idea is to truly level the playing field, it is my contention that doing away with “racial” thought — or “black” aesthetics, or “feminine” logic, etc — is the best way forward. Affirmative action that relies on something both scientifically dubious and historically charged as “race” is not a winning strategy; affirmative action based on opportunity is far more desirable, and far less racially divisive.

Fish and Caric would turn “merit” into a code word; but to do so cheapens the accomplishments of a host of immigrant cultures who throughout the history of this country have assimilated and prospered as “Americans.”

In short, Caric (and, at least in 1995, Fish) have staked out an enemy and consigned him with bad faith. They may as well as “the right” if we’ve all stopped beating our wives.
Similarly, his reply on homosexual marriage manages to suggest that those who don’t view marriage as a fundamental right (rather than a social contract decided upon by a given culture, with a long tradition shared over time by multiple cultures) are, by fiat, homophobic — despite the fact that they would readily grant all the benefits of state-sanctioned partnerships to same-sex couples.

Caric explains this only by saying that those who wish to deny such a “fundamental right” must necessarily hate gays, because by denying they devalue.

Pure sleight of hand. Because the question of whether marriage is a fundamental right is just that — a question, not some universal principle or inalienable right. Societies place restrictions on marriage all the time (from age to number of partners, etc). And, were same-sex marriage legislation to pass by popular vote, I’d have no trouble abiding it. As it stands, though, my argument against same sex marriage remains semantic — and redounds to worry over both the stated motives of some activists, and the precedent such a redefinition of marriage would set with respect to future petitioners vying for their “fundamental rights”.

Caric believes that these positions are simply masks for a hatred of Queers and Darkies. Because by doing so, he doesn’t have to get into the nitty gritty of putting his own policy preferences to the test.

My positions and arguments — linked above and there for all to see — are clearly stated; my reasons for supporting those arguments are, likewise, spelled out. For Caric’s part, he has yet to address them at all, except by way of generalizing about the motives of conservatives, and by relying on a pair of dated essays by Stanley Fish, who would proudly call himself a modern day sophist.

And before Caric takes the easy way out and labels me another knee-jerk attacker of po-mo, he should know that I have, on several occasions, defended Fish here — against attacks from conservatives.

I have also broken down some of Fish’s rhetorical subterfuge. So you see, I’m more difficult to pigeonhole than Dr Caric would imagine me to be.

****long-oppressed sister of update: I loved this comment from ushie so much that I decided to append it here, lest it be overlooked:

Meh. The sumbitch has the nerve, repeatedly, to characterize a blog he disagrees with as “cute” and “Fluffy.” Believe me, as a feminist and a female, I know EXACTLY what he’s doing by employing such denigrating terms that are usually an accompaniment to “Oh, don’t worry your pretty little head, darling.”

Caric, you should not be teaching women’s studies. You’re a fraud.

(Hey, anyone want to lay a bet as to whether he ignores this sally, thereby further marginalizing a female voice?)

Sadly, ushie, you miss Dr Caric’s point: the fact that you read this site (read it, you understand — not just skim it in order to jump to ridiculous conclusions) means that you cannot lay claim to being a feminist. Because “real” feminists cannot possibly align themselves with the hatred and bigotry toward women, gays, and all the other Others so routinely hated here.

In fact, “real” feminists can only believe in what “real” feminists believe in. Which is what makes them “real” feminists to begin with.

It’s simple, really: to prove your feminist bona fides, you must ride along with the herd.
Not sure that captures the spirit of what the first wave feminists were after, but hey — they’re just a bunch of old dead white women anyway, right? Good riddance, I say.

27 comments:

Anonymous said...

I've already taken them but after three or four lines of the excrement this guy offers up I need something for nausea.

Anonymous said...

toddy. You have this suck-up sychophant concept down pat.

Anonymous said...

What the fuck is wrong with you? Stop giving him cause to think his arguments have merit. He's got an unlimited supply of hooks and bait, and you keep biting.

Pablo said...

Their merit is sufficient cause to think they have merit. The complaint about length is hilarious, given the 1100+ word comment being responded to. It's also quite transparent and ineffective.

But it's nice of this anonymous commenter to point out that you're about to find yourself yanked out of your little pond and flopping around on the bottom of Goldstein's boat. I'm afraid that bit of advice is too little too late.

Couldn't happen to a nicer bigot.

Anonymous said...

Hey, Ric -- you are finally getting some people to read this "fluffy" blog. Congratulations, nimrod!

Anonymous said...

Well those are some nice insightful comments about nothing. You people have bottomed out on the personal insults. What's next, finding out where Liberals live and throwing handfuls of feces into our homes? I kind of feel as though that's what you do everytime I take a look at this blog and I see the shit you put here. Ric is far kinder than I would be. If this were my blog people who cannot disagree without disrespect would be blocked. Grow up folks.

Gib said...

Is that why you keep telling me to go find a hooker, todd? Does it make you feel grown up to talk like that?

Anonymous said...

A joke Michael, intended to diffuse what has become a far too hostile tone on here. It's not as though you folks haven't said equally insulting things about those of us on the left who post here. I really think everyone needs to step back and calm down.

Gib said...

So when you say it, it is a joke, if I say it, it is an insult. Are you starting to sense a pattern, here, todd? Remember that the perfessor started this whole shebang off by calling me a right-wing cancer, and timmy has called me a white supremacist. I think any invectives I have used rather pale in that light.

Anonymous said...

Addressing your wounded feelings, I said you saw a difference in genetics. If you read that as race, then the entire structure of right wing thought built on Charles Murray's analysis is white supremacist. Interesting admission form one of the water carriers of that movement.

Gib said...

"Michael said...

"because the poorer the neighborhood, the more special services: speech, audiology, special ed, psychologists to test and help determine the appropriate placement..."

Why do you suppose that is?


timb said:

Gee, Mike, since it's true of poor rural white kids and inner city black and Latinos, your cherished genetic inferiority of the races argument probably won't hold much water.


You are a liar, timmy, plain and simple.

Gib said...

I just googled Charles Murray, and the idea that I am a water carrier for him is another of your complete fabrications. I don't think it is possible to accumulate the data required to compare racial intelligence, and see no reason to believe there would be any significant difference. That is the reason I don't support affirmative action, I think race plays no role in the problems you are describing.

Extra programs for poor kids from broken homes, or other such provable influences, those I may support, depending on the details. But singling out minorities is not addressing the real issue and sending the wrong signal to the child in my opinion. To me, people who support affirmative action are the ones promoting the child's race as an issue affecting his learning ability, I don't see how you could see it otherwise.

Anonymous said...

Michael, so what you're saying is that the historical dynamics between whites and African Americans don't play a role in our society today?

You seriously believe that people aren't discriminated against because of their skin color?

Gib said...

No scott, that is not what I said at all. Of course history plays a role, and of course people are discriminated against because of skin color. The discussion is about whether affirmative action programs are an effective curative, and specifically the effectiveness of race-based affirmative action programs in poorer school districts.

Anonymous said...

Hey I'm completely convinced now. You haven't spent multiple posts decrying that liberals make to much out of race relations when race plays no factor in the problems facing African Americans. I totally mis-interpreted you to the max man! How silly of me and my naive liberal ideology. Gosh, I'm glad I saw the light.

Seriously, stop the circular arguments. They grow tedious and make you seem less credible. You're not nearly as talented as my favorite talking head; Tony Snow.

Gib said...

Circular arguments? Have you even read the other posts? The discussion has been specifically about affirmative action programs with regard to the funding of inner city schools. I say IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE that poverty and poor parenting is the cause, because as timmy points out the evidence points to that in similar conditions regardless of race. So why shouldn't we treat it as such rather than place emphasis on race? Are you really having a hard time following this?

Anonymous said...

Perhaps because the discrepancies between whites and minorities are much larger than the discrepancies between rich whites and poor whites?

Your entire argument is centered around their individual failings when in fact it's a group problem imposed upon them almost entirely by society. If you would look at history and data you would see the pattern, but you're more interested in turning it into an issue of race consciousness vs individual responsibility.

Certainly affirmative action works, it helps African Americans get into schools that otherwise might not be open to them. It helps give them the same opportunities that we have. It helps offset a lack of emphasis on education by allowing for programs that cultivate impoverished African American children's desire to learn. As a society we have a duty to ourselves and them to give them every advantage we can.

Quite frankly I agree with Dr. Caric. Your arguments are nothing more than attempts to legitimize racism and bigotry.

Gib said...

Quite frankly, I am tired of being called a racist by people who apparently can't fucking read.

Anonymous said...

Michael - The irony, practically dripping with irony, is that Scott Sparks does not think that they can succeed without somebody else giving them an extra push, or without the help of the Left.

How is society imposing a group failing on inner cities, Scott?

Anonymous said...

Let's see, history of racism, segregation and oppression? Check. Lack of funding for inner city minority schools? Check. Demonizing portrayal by popular media outlets? Check.

Man, you guys are right, society doesn't have anything to do with oppressing African Americans. Clearly it's all their fault.

Anonymous said...

What about today? Nobody is disputing the past. Lack of funding? As has been done previously, I call BS. Inner city schools are funded at levels significantly higher than the state and national averages. Is it funded to the extent the NEA and AFSCME want? Nope, never will be.

Who is oppressing them today?

Can they only succeed with your help?

Anonymous said...

White men are oppressing them today, just like white men are oppressing women today. Oppression still exists.I'm curious as to what studies you pull that data from on funding, because the ones I read specifically said inner city minority schools were funded well below the average. And, I argue that no one can succeed without societies help. If society is against someone then that person encounters nothing but hardship. The elite in society are trying to crush the middle and lower classes right now, and thanks in larger part to the tax cuts provided by President Bush, they're succeeding. It shouldn't be the case that a person must drag themselves up the ladder in spite of society, but that society should afford them every opportunity to pull themselves up.

Anonymous said...

Simply asserting that white men are oppressing blacks, and white men are oppressing women is preposterous. Facts.

I am not going to do your homework for you. Go look at how much money is spent, per pupil, in Washington DC, New York, Chicago, and then compared those figures to comparable suburban schools, and rural areas. The numbers are not even close.

I would argue that society is not "against" anyone. You have provided no evidence of that.

To paraphrase, my money never made anybody else poor.

What is Ric Caric, white man that he is, doing to combat the oppression that he is heaping upon blacks and women?

Gib said...

I was looking through this:
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2007/ruraled/
and the statistics are tricky.

Rural teachers are paid less, even graded for cost of living adjustments, but because the rural student/teacher ratio is lower it does appear that, using adjusted figures, the overall funding per student is slightly higher in rural areas. None of that supports the notion that funding should be based on race, nor do any of their other findings that I could see in a quick scan.

Anonymous said...

You know, after interacting with you people for a while, I now know why people in their 40s, 50s, and beyond people look at the future with such bleakness. They see their lives in the hands of people like us who would rather trade insults than simply say "I disagree. Here's why." If you think insults and personal attacks accomplish the task of governing a great nation, we ARE truly in trouble. And please spare me the googled examples of how Democrats are so petty now that we're in charge and how the left does nothing but whine. We get it. You hate us becuase we disagree with you. Fine. 'nuff said. How many ways do you think we have to hear it. I got it right away and it is unfortunate that I have participated as much as I have. So, if it makes all the right-wing folks happy, you win. You do better personal insults than we do. You've got that down to a science. My compliments. Your parents must be proud.

Anonymous said...

Todd, I'm not sure if you're still around this thread, but let me assure you, one of the finer points of PW is that they are all old, reactionary bastards. Goldstein is a pup, but the rest of his "collective" (I like the professor's word) are all in their upper 40's, 50's and 60's.

Just go over there and post that the War in Vietnam was won by the Vietnamese and John Kerry is a war hero. The anger, the vitriol you will see will blow your hair back. This is why they defend Iraq so much. They are determined to prevent a second 'Nam.

They actually had a recent thread on Kerry whereby many posters not only equated Kerry with Benedict Arnold, a few suggest (or claimed outright) that Kerry was a bigger traitor than Arnold. Kooky, but true

Anonymous said...

They are determined to prevent a second Nam

You say this as though it is a bad thing. I know the Left likes to hold up Viet Nam as some kind of sick triumph, but the simple fact is that a couple of million brown people got slaughtered after we gave up.

Fortunately, at least until 2008, we do not have to worry about that happening.