Monday, August 20, 2007

Drezner's Disappointing Attempt to Escape Dialogue

There's been a lot of back and forth over the last few days over blogger criticism of "the foreign policy community" between liberal bloggers Glenn Greenwald and Matthew Yglesias and foreign policy specialists Gideon Rose and Daniel Drezner. The liberal blogger or "netroots" critique of the foreign policy community or "establishment" is essentially the same as their critique of the mainstream media. According to Greenwald and Yglesias, the prominent foreign policy specialists who promoted the invasion of Iraq suffered no apparent consequences for their egregious misjudgments. In fact, the consensus of the foreign policy community still seems to be at least close to neo-conservative military adventurism. Likewise, it still appears that war opponents are frozen out of significant participation in foreign policy discussion. Despite the monumental nature of the Iraq disaster, nothing seems to have changed in the foreign policy community.

Greenwald and Yglesias are two of my favorite bloggers though and I think it fair to say that I'm biased toward them. However, I have to say that my main reaction to the controversy is disappointment in the writing of Drezner and Rose. They both work at foreign policy full-time and I believe they have more knowledge in the area than generalists like Greenwald and Yglesias. Yet, instead of using his expertise to further the discussion, the specialists set up a bunch of straw men and phony hypotheticals that seem designed to obfuscate rather than enlighten.

Let me give an example from Drezner's discussion of military intervention. Greenwald argues that "the U.S. should not attack another country unless that country has attacked or directly threatens our national security . . ." Greenwald's main weakness as a commentator is that he often engages in overly broad formulations like this and Drezner certainly could have contested this definition of legitimate attacks on other countries as too broad to be useful or in need of modification. Given Drezner's expertise in international affairs, he could have done so in a way that advanced the discussion of appropriate American conduct in a post/9-11 and post Iraq world. In other words, Dresner could have used his specialist knowledge to improve on Greenwald. But no dice. Instead, Drezner asks a set of rhetorical questions:

How does one define direct threats to national security? For the United States, would civil war in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan qualify? Should the use of force be categorically rejected in both cases? Does Iran's links to the Khobar Towers bombing justify the use of force against Teheran, as per Greenwald's criteria?
Ultimately, these questions are disingenuous, and perhaps dangerously so. By using the hypothetical examples of civil war in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan just to frame a rhetorical question about Greenwald's definition, Drezner implicitly claims that Greenwald's definition fails because Drezner can raise these kinds of questions. Instead of using his expertise to further discussion, Drezner apparently seeks to drive Greenwald back to a zero point where there is no limitation on the ability of the American government to attack other countries.

It didn't have to be this way. At a minimum, Drezner could have used his examples to articulate something like a concept of "indirect threat" to American national security as justifying attacks on other nations as a complicating factor. Such indirect threats certainly would not always justify attacks, but civil wars in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan "might" impinge enough on American national security to justify attacks in "certain circumstances" that shouldn't be discounted in advance. In such a case, one could justify an American military operation without aiming for the global domination envisioned by PNAC and the Bush doctrine.

In other words, Drezner could have defined a "prudent" rule of thumb that closed off military adventures like Iraq but didn't unnecessarily hamstring American policy-makers.

There's a danger in Drezner's giving Greenwald the back of his hand like this. While attempting to close down Greenwald's effort to define a limit to American attacks, Drezner is opening up the possibility that the U. S. has a right to attack any country any time we want as neo-cons like Ledeen, Bolton, and Robert Kagan (especially in Of Paradise and Power) argue. Without any principled limitations on the right of the American government to attack other countries, the question then becomes whether the U. S. has the military power to execute all the attacks that the warmongers can imagine. Given that the neo-cons believe we have potentially unlimited military power, that means we can attack practically any country (except Israel) at any time.

Drezner goes on to bait Greenwald in ways that refuse to take him seriously even though the article was entitled "Taking Glenn Greenwald Seriously." Ultimately, both Drezner confirms the blogger critique of the foreign policy community. They are determined to learn nothing from Iraq.

More than anything else, I find that disappointing.

29 comments:

Anonymous said...

I take Gleen Greenwald seriously. Did you know that he has written a NY Times best-seller?

Anonymous said...

I take all of the Gleens seriously. Did you know that his writing has been read into the Senate record?

Anonymous said...

Gleen is a great American/Brazilian. His works have been quoted in major publications, and his right of center commentary speaks to my heart.

Anonymous said...

Professor, apparently in the distant past Glen, who is my favorite blogger, used pseudonyms to argue in comments sections. The Protein Wisdom crowd has apparently never let it go, despite Glen's ascension to most powerful single blogger outside of Malkin. Who else could have this debate with the foreign policy folks? No one else would be acknowledged.

I find it ironic that at one time Goldstein and Greenwald considered each other equals, worthy of a debating series, and due to Jeff's intransigence, unwavering support of a lost cause, and multiple retirements, Greenwald has so eclipsed him in influence and readership that there's a good chance Glen wouldn't call on Jeff to ask a question at t a book signing! Jeff's reaction is to misrepresent Greenwald's arguments (made when Greenwald was also a tiny little blogger) and to deem him dishonest because of the pseudonym thing. The sycophants and water carriers gleefully join in, because it's simpler to criticize Glen for arguing in his comment section, than attempting to rebut his usually well-reasoned and (in my opinion) correct arguments.

For the PW guy (almost exclusively men over there) writing the hilarious outtake above, doesn't Kaerl have a place a "pub" for you to vent about Glen? Could you do so, because this discussion is important. And, on your way, could uyou determine for me who the "ghost of Zacharius Massoui" is on PW. Hint: his initials are JG.

Anonymous said...

I am right.

Anonymous said...

He sure is !

Anonymous said...

Thomas sure is right about Glenn!

Anonymous said...

Glenn is dreamy !

Anonymous said...

Calling what he did using pseudonyms is cute. He created a digital crowd of agreement with himself, in an effort to give more credibility to his tortured logic, by giving the impression that many different people agreed with him.

Did you know he published a best seller and his words have been read into the Senate record, and that his voice speaks for a generation of conservative libertarians?

Anonymous said...

That JD sure is smart.

Anonymous said...

JD's argument cannot be discounted, as he is a voice of reason.

Anonymous said...

Brian and Patrick's assessment are the same as mine.

Anonymous said...

I also what he does now is more important and that creating "a chorus" years ago is less damaging to one's credibility than....oh, I don't know, being a male escort and being in porn films. One shows you wanted to enhance your own credibility. The other shows you can bought. You accept the word of one (under investigation for fraud currently) and denigrate the achievements of the other based upon partisan measures of credibility. Nice work, JD. I'm sure if Jeff keeps his nose to the grindstone, he could succeed in getting a tenth of the hits Greenwals does in a few decades

Anonymous said...

It was hardly years ago.

Since Matt Sanchez is so important to your narrative, please point out where he was wrong in his reporting. As is, the only person that has been discredited is Scott Beauchamp.

Anonymous said...

JD, this isn't about Sanchez or Beauchamp, it's about a foreign policy community that represents a hide-bound status quo and approves of the policy of pre-emptive war, despite the apparent idiocy of that policy.

It's also about Protein Wisdom's collective sour grapes over the success of a person with actual talent and ability.

What I was trying to explain to you was why you give unquestioning loyalty to people who are frauds and crooks and, in the same breath, attack the minor indiscretion of another person (and claim that indiscretion hurts the credibility of the that person) solely on for partisan reasons.

Just to answer your question, the issue in question happened prior to anyone knowing anything about Beauchamp other than he said something and Sanchez said the opposite. You believed Sanchez, despite his limitations because you wanted to, not because he should have been believed. My complaint was about the process being flawed. You know, the same complaint you guys make about Dan Rather (the memos were faked, the story is true, but the fake memos ruin it all for you).

Had you tasked me to go to the Castelton Taco Bell and see if Scott Beauchamp ever insulted a disabled woman, of course, I would find he did not. Same with Sanchez, it hardly burnishes his credibility that he went to the wrong country to find the story. of course, he found nothing (going to the wrong place wasn't his fault obviously). The man is a flawed spokesperson, who is not a journalist, who is for sale.

For the last time on this subject, my complaint is about the process wherein you determine where you give your loyalty. bad process often leads to okay result, but most of the time does not. See the current President's domestic and foreign policy. Bad processes/bad results.

Anonymous said...

Also, JD, I found this comment on a blog and you can check out the links to determine if Matt is your kind of spokesperson: TitusPullo (See profile | I'm a fan of TitusPullo)
I think Matt Sanchez thought he could get away with it, because he's had work done. He probably deluded himself into thinking no one would recognize him.

I think its fairly obvious that he's had plastic surgery, but he attributes the change in his appearance to something called "facercise." He did some heavy handed shilling for a facercise book at Amazon...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/
member-reviews/
A3NF0551WKCCF8?_encoding=UTF8

What he failed to mention in his rave reviews of the book is that he works for the people who published it. If you click through the sample pages, posted here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader
/0399527842/ref=sib_dp_pt/
102-8442849-5203327#reader-link

...you see that Sanchez worked as a "before & after" model. Oddly enough, I think his dishonest promotion of this facercise book is worse than the porn and prostitution.

Matt Sanchez is a lying, hustling con artist. He's a plant like Jeff Gannon. Someone should try to find out if he has any ties to anyone associated with GOPUSA or Talon News."

The dude is for sale and, if you want to buy what he selling, it's another sign that it's not truth that matters to you, but partisan politics.

Anonymous said...

You can claim to care about the truth with a straight face? Find me something that Scott Beauchamp and TNR told the truth about. Square bullets? Bradley's that cannot do what was described? Confirmation with the manufacturer of the Bradleys that turns out to not have happened? The victim of the IED being in a different country, before he got to the war that changed him, and as a minoir aside, a fucking urban legend?

Where am I defending Sanchez? You guys sure seem to be invested in talking about the GAY PORN COCK OF LIES, rather than the lies that Beauchamp and TNR published.

Anonymous said...

I did not "believe Sanchez". I believed, based on my experience, and the experience of others, as well as other active duty soldiers, that the stories did not ring true. They turned out to be much less than true, complete fabrications.

But, if you feel better pointing out that Sanchez was once a gay prostitute, go right ahead. I thought yours was the party of tolerance?

Anonymous said...

JD, you're a grown man, so act like one.

You just keep repeating the same tired Goldstein talking points. Point of fact: I never said Sanchez lied; I said he had no credibility, apparently a discussion too deep for your distracted-by-shiny-glittering attention to grasp (this the third time you have ignored it, so you can focus on the simple and obtuse).

If you have a comment to add about the foreign policy establishment, then please, post away. If all you want to talk about is some hack from Iraq that you loathe and some hack from Iraq you root for, then there's a nice thread on PW for you.

My last comment on Beauchamp is that the New Republic stands by their story and their five confirming witnesses. You call the matter resolved, because you are trying to score partisan points.

Have you examined the role partisanship plays in your life? You post a lot and read a few blogs pretty excessively. You're sort of on a team, aren't you. I call myself a leftist, but I can show the posts where I've had to argue with real leftists. I think of myself as an independent (at least until November when I do the poll inspector gig, then I have to declare for a party.)

But, you my friend, are coming across as nothing more than a hero worshiping fan...politics isn't like the Colts, JD. You can sit on either side and both sides are wrong and both sides are right on some things. Is that just too hard to grasp. Is that why you take the word of a shill? Is it why you won't follow links? Hell, even Pablo can follow a link. Is it why you insist that the New Republic was undermining a war, which they support?

PS. The Colts need to work on that punt coverage. Why do they always stink at that?

Anonymous said...

Foer does not support the war, and expressed his intentions to move the magazine away from the prior editorial direction.

The rest of yours is lies. Should we believe Beauchamp's wife in that the story was fact checked?

The military says that it was all false, and in one case, an urban legend. Given the official statements issued by the military, TNR's "we stand by our story" rings hollow.

And, by the way, they did not fact check or confirm the story. Go look at the statement from the manufacturer of the Bradley as to how they "confirmed" the story. Essentially, they did not confirm it.

I did not take the word of any shill, unless my personal experience and that of people still serving counts as shills. That you still defend TNR and Beauchamp speaks volumes.

Anonymous said...

So, no comment on what is on this thread and no worries about a) the process in which declare someone credible or b) the Colts punt coverage?

PS I defend TNR only to note the story is not over yet. If you call that fact a defense, well, you not credible

Anonymous said...

The process in which someone is declared credible? Let's use Beauchamp as an example. He was held up as credible, until people from the service started pointing out that his stories did not ring true. More reporting by The Weekly Standard and further in-depth coverage by milbloggers showed almost everything he reported to either not have happened, not been possible, or wildly exaggreated. At that point, it is safe to deem him not the least bit credible. When you couple that with his expressed intetions prior to entering Iraq, it is painfully obvious to anyone willing to look that he simply made the shit up.

Punt coverage - We essentially use our 2nd team in special teams during the regular season. You will note that we did better in the playoffs, due to the fact that many starters took on special teams roles in the playoffs.

Anonymous said...

"we"? I didn't know season ticket holders were officially part of the organization?

Anonymous said...

Fair enough ... they.

Anonymous said...

I like it when timb says "it's not about (subject timb brought up". I always chuckle, toss my head to the side and say, "that Timb"

Anonymous said...

But no dice. Instead, Drezner asks a set of rhetorical questions:

These are exactly the sort of questions that prove your point that Greenwald(s) definition requires modification. While they may be hypothetical, civil war in Pakistan is not a far reach of the imagination. As a nuclear nation, would it be in our interest to insure islamists do not win such a conflict? At the very least a set of conditions for determining the threshold of national interest is needed.

Reducing his response to a couple of rhetorical questions also seems to be deceptive (intended or not) the original is extensive and reasonably discusses the shortcomings in the Greenwald(s)' original formulation. Excluding so much of it, and further describing it down, without a link for other readers to see the original, seems to be a necessary construct for your post to work. Obfuscation isn't a terribly honorable way win an argument.

Drezner implicitly claims that Greenwald's definition fails because Drezner can raise these kinds of questions.

As you statement of over-broadness points out. While you may not agree with the method of pointing out the flaws, Drezner and you appear to have arrived at the same point. You are correct that he does not advance the discussion by offering up possible modifications, but that does not invalidate his critique of Greenwald(s)' foreign policy conclusions.

Drezner is opening up the possibility that the U. S. has a right to attack any country any time we want

Unless I missed something(in the unlinked original?), he makes no argument for that policy either. You seem to be insisting that he has some sort of greater resposibility to argue against interventionist matters, and that failing to do so is equal to approval of the neo-con policy (though I guess that's much like your insistence that failing to kowtow to Sharpton et al is the moral equivalent of supporting the KKK). Failure to agree with Greenwald(s)' conclusions is not aprroval of the other side of the argument. Both could be wrong, that he chose not to present a counter argument isn't reason for condemnation.

Ric Caric said...

Drezner does have a greater responsibility to identify principles of limitation for American attacks. First, the identification of such principles is needed to prevent a recurrence of the Iraq disaster. Second, Drezner is more qualified to do so than a generalist like Greenwald. Because Drezner refused to engage in anything that useful, his expertise (and that of others like Gideon Rose) is wasted in the present context. And that's very disappointing. Despite the limitations of his analysis, Greenwald is doing something that's very much needed in the present context when he identifies a principle for limiting invasions. Hopefully, the criticism of Greenwald and other bloggers will spur foreign policy experts to turn their attention to that direction.

Anonymous said...

Your title characterization of "escaping dialogue", even with an attempt at further explanation, remains ridiculous. Reading Drezner's post, not to mention Greenwald(s)' follow up, then Drezners follow, follow up would make it clear that there is no attempt to do so. It may not be the dialogue you want, but he's not running from it, or brushing it off as you indicate.

It would be far more productive of you, since productivity is your goal here, to comment over on his site, or privately contact him, and ask him to expand or offer alternatives to Greenwald(s) proposal, than to respond by characterizing him as a debate coward for not preemptively providing you with the response you were hoping for.

I still find the whole post dishonest for it's complete mischaracterization of Drezner's original post.

- Prior to this, I've not been to his site or read any of his material, so I don't have a horse in this race.

Anonymous said...

I am shocked, in a gob-smacking kind of way, that somebody took Thomas Ellers and the legions of sock-puppets seriously enough to attempt a debate with him. Trying to debate Greenwald is practically impossible, given his propensity for running off with the goalposts, and erecting a stawman to savagely beat every other paragraph.

One good thing to come of this. Glenn cannot get away with his complete mischaracterization of sources, via links, which is one of his primary rhetorical tools.

Ric - Much like your positions on racism, homophobia, etc ... just because you say something does not make it so. Just because an answer was not constructed in the manner in which you thought it should be does not mean that he attempted to escape a discussion, and your reduction of his arguments to the point of absurdity is, at best, intellectually dishonest, apparently a place where you feel quite comfortable.